Leading Through Crisis With Confidence | Alan Dunbar

Leadership often looks steady from the outside. Inside, it can feel anything but. In this conversation, Sarah sits down with aerospace president and former Royal Navy engineer Alan Dunbar to explore the real link between confidence and leadership when pressure, pace and responsibility collide.

Alan shares the moments that shaped him – from search and rescue missions in the 1980s to guiding large aerospace teams through the shock of the pandemic. His stories reveal how calm, grounded leadership earns trust in a way no framework ever could. They also uncover something every leader quietly wrestles with: confidence wobbles, self-doubt, and the fear of getting it wrong when people are relying on you.

Together, Sarah and Alan unpick why fear shuts down our ability to think clearly, why emotional intelligence only works when paired with self-control, and how the right environment can transform someone’s performance. It’s a conversation full of honesty, reflection and practical wisdom for anyone navigating the modern leadership landscape.

If you’ve ever felt overloaded, stretched, or unsure whether you’re doing enough, this episode will help you feel seen – and remind you that confidence isn’t about perfection. It’s about presence, clarity and the courage to lead as a human being first.

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Transcript

Sarah 0:03

Welcome to Lead Brightly. I'm Sarah Farmer, your host, and I'm delighted to be joined by the fabulous Alan Dunbar today. And I'm going to tell you a little bit about Alan before we get stuck into our conversation. So Alan started his career as an aircraft engineer in the Royal Navy, where he spent 13 years learning what real leadership is all about, especially under pressure. Those early days have shaped the way he thinks about tasks, people, and teamwork. Long before he ever had a formal leadership title. After leaving the military, he stayed in aviation, moving into flight test engineering, and then into commercial roles across major aerospace organisations, including Meggitt, GKN Aerospace and Cobham. Each move pushed him into new territories and gave him a front row seat to very different leadership styles, which I can't wait to get into, which we're going to describe as the good, the bad, and the I'll never do it that way. Over the years, he's grown into senior leadership roles across the aerospace sector, and today as president of Dark Engineering, Alan still draws on the same principles he learned early on. Look after people, stay adaptable, and lead with humility. Alan, welcome to the show and thank you so much for agreeing to chat to me today about the relationship between leadership and confidence.

Alan Dunbar 1:18

Thank you. I'm delighted to be here

Sarah 1:20

the first question I have for you then is around leading brightly. What does it mean to you? What, what does that, what does it involve, do you think, to lead brightly?

Alan Dunbar 1:29

it's not actually about getting everything right and skipping through life high, fiving everybody and being the most popular guy in the room. that's easy, but a bit superficial. There's a lot of nice guys out there who can't lead, and a lot of nice ladies out there who can't lead.

Sarah 1:44

Good point.

Alan Dunbar 1:45

I think for me, leading brightly is, accepting your own fallibility and accepting that you're not going to get it right all of the time, still having the confidence and the trust and the team around you. Because let's be honest about it, none of us are anything without our teams.

Sarah 1:59

Exactly. Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 2:01

and I think being able to have that trust in your team and the confidence to know that, you know you're going to get it right most of the time. Or Mo I want to say, I think most of the time you're driving in the right direction, you stay

Sarah 2:13

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 2:13

a positive step forward,

Sarah 2:15

Yes. Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 2:16

and I think Leading Brightly is all about getting comfortable with that.

Sarah 2:19

So getting comfortable with, occasionally being uncomfortable and being okay with not being right or not knowing at all, which is very much down to the confidence side of things. yeah, I, love all that. now one could assume looking at your, looking at your CV and reading your bio that you've just stormed through to where you are now. you've, done amazing things and you are now. One could say your pinnacle. maybe not. Maybe there's more, to go. Who knows? so is it fair to assume that you have never yourself, been a victim of low confidence issues? Or is that a fallacy? That what we look at isn't always what we see?

Alan Dunbar 3:01

Yeah, I think, yeah, it's exactly that, isn't it? What, what's reality are, two different things and what goes on behind the scenes and no, you, you said I appear to have storm through my career. no, I haven't. setbacks like everybody else, but the key thing is how you deal with those setbacks and there are two things that can become destructive or it can be a fuel and depending how you're able to process that really depends on whether it is destructive or fuel. I think.

Sarah 3:30

Yeah, completely. And, for full transparency, I'm going to just let the audience know that, I've worked with you on and off now for four or five years, so I know you quite well and I know that there's been ups and downs and one of the. I think the major downs is when COVID hit and a lot of really good senior leaders are losing their jobs. and what I really liked from you at that point was you weren't afraid to ask for help. You weren't afraid to come and get the support that you needed. because a lot of people think they should just be able to power through and know it all, and that can have way more damage, can't it, than, actually getting the help that you need or. Or looking for support.

Alan Dunbar 4:15

Absolutely, because the COVID is a great example because was, something I, remember talking to my, then CEO about it, when it happened. and I said to him, I said, this is really difficult when we just got into lockdown. And I was the MD of a fairly big aerospace organisation at the time. and the chief executive said to me, look at it this way Alan. Nobody's going to tell you're wrong'cause nobody's ever done this before. And, that was a, that, that was a, confidence boost. didn't help the fact that I had a clue. We're going to do from one way to the ne one day to the next,

Sarah 4:54

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 4:54

much like many of us. But again, at that point, I had a, pretty good team and we were able to establish those open dialogue points and, because we trusted each other, we, managed to figure out a way through it and figure out a way around the obstacles, like working from home and all those types of things.

Sarah 5:13

It was a nightmare time, actually. Nightmare time. And there, there was no precedent, there was no, this is how we do it. There was no rule book, on, how to, did you find it easier not to have a rule book then? Obviously it sounds like you had the, support from your boss, which is great. go ahead and do it. No one knows what's right or wrong. Or did it add to the pressure of the not being a right. You do step one, then we go here, then we go there.

Alan Dunbar 5:39

I preferred it.

Sarah 5:41

Okay.

Alan Dunbar 5:41

happy with it. but then, maybe I, come from a, background of not just a military of, spent a lot of years in sales, and our salespeople are, usually quite adept at dealing with ambiguity. Guity is, almost a natural hunting ground for a lot of salespeople.

Sarah 5:58

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 6:00

it's one, one of my, one of my own chief executives would say, yeah, that's'cause you guys like to dodge data, but it's,

Sarah 6:06

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 6:10

but it's, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But no, your ability to navigate ambiguity. it's a big thing and I, do remember at the time, we used to talk about, ambiguity and uncertainty and, and, we thought we knew what that meant. And, but back in those days, ambiguity and uncertainty was whether or not Airbus were going to adjust the build rates in the second half of the year. or

Sarah 6:37

yeah.

Alan Dunbar 6:38

how many engines Rolls Royce were going to build in a year. that was the extent of it. And then

Sarah 6:41

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 6:43

bang, everybody's doors are shut. Nobody's trading. You can't even be within, a couple of meters of each other. Now what are you going to do? So that was a bit of a, reset really in the, whole thing.

Sarah 6:55

Yeah. Yeah. it's, it was a very difficult time for everybody. I remember going through the experience and all my business just dropped completely and I was left with nothing and had, and like you with that sales mindset. and quite a bloody minded mindset. I was like, this isn't going to beat me. I'm going to do something. I quite liked the idea of something new and, the space to go and explore and, but it, I think a lot of people, it flawed, and especially those who ended up losing their roles eventually, had been through a hard time. And then what was going to happen? There was a, mass amount of people at senior levels looking for roles and it all got a little bit twitchy for a while, didn't it?

Alan Dunbar 7:34

Yeah, absolutely. I was one of them. I, my role ended up di disappearing. But, you're right. It was, it was very twitchy because before. I referred to earlier the, acronym, VUCA was the term of the day, especially in the aerospace industry. And it was volatility, uncertainty, and as I said to you, really wasn't, when the pandemic hit after a couple of months, you basically took that definition of VUCA and ripped it up through it away, and it completely. But that's had a lasting reset on, a lot of businesses and a lot of people today, to this day, it's still having an impact on us with working from home and those attitudes to workplace. And that in itself brings its own leadership challenges as we know, as as discussed. yeah, it's

Sarah 8:22

yeah. It was.

Alan Dunbar 8:23

of a recent.

Sarah 8:24

Interesting has, and it's just reminded me, actually I'd never heard of VUCA and I don't, I just say VUCA Not by the way, then I am known to swear. But I did say VUCA. I'd never heard of that until I spoke to you the first time. And I remember thinking, I must pretend I know what it is. And then you just spelled it out for me. I was like, oh yeah, and that I get it. So thank you for educating me all those years ago. So I do want to go into the good, the bad, and the, I'll never do it that way. and I'd love to see in those cases. Let's start with the good. Let's start with the good stuff is how much of a part does self-confidence, self-belief, and emotional intelligence play in the ability for someone to be the type of person or the type of leader that we describe as good?

Alan Dunbar 9:06

I think obviously it plays a, huge part. but as, we know, there are a number of different facets to, the whole emotional intelligence piece. and one of the facets that, sometimes overused is, that social awareness and people think they know. their teams, they think they know people, they think they know their environment better than they do. and sometimes self-awareness is one that's left lacking. and we've seen that, you've seen that a few times. and, I'd be lying if I sat here and said that I haven't been guilty of it from, time to time. If you're aware of it, you can, at least recognise

Sarah 9:44

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 9:45

yeah, it's, it is one of the challenges. and, I think. A lot of people profess very emotionally intelligent and, they'll tell you what their EI score is because they've done an online

Sarah 9:58

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 9:58

to me, a gauge of emotional intelligence is actually demonstrated in the, in your behaviours from day to day.

Sarah 10:06

And not having to tell someone that you're emotionally intelligent.

Alan Dunbar 10:08

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. and because you, listen to everyone and just because you, you're, or you're seen to li to listen to everyone and just because you let everyone do what they like and you empower everybody, that doesn't actually make you emotionally intelligent. Sometimes that just means you're abdicating your own duties as a leader.

Sarah 10:26

Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? I think there's one of the things that I see quite often is that a lot of leaders don't get there. Their own development seem to, it's just not seen as a priority. it's difficult to fit it in. It's difficult to, work around it. There isn't the budget for that. We want to train the people who are on, the ground doing the groundwork stuff because that seems to be more important. But when we miss out on developing the people at the top down, That has a huge impact because we are then missing the emotional intelligence to lead with inspiration, set meaningful goals for the people that are directly beneath us or working with us in our team. Shouldn't say beneath us, that's awful, but alongside us. and then the people on the ground get hit in some shape or form anyway.

Alan Dunbar 11:11

Yeah, and there's a, couple of, we. Looking at it, and you, touched on something there, because what is the point in investing in continuous improvement training for your, production teams? What was the point in investing in five s, six s, whatever continuous improvement flavor you, choose, and then not investing in the capability of your, leadership and your management team. Because ultimately, as we know, sometimes people find themselves accidental managers, as the term we know very well indeed. and simply putting people in a management position, given'em the management title, we all know that doesn't necessarily work. and therefore there is that need for investment in your people. You just have to,

Sarah 11:52

Yes.

Alan Dunbar 11:53

the two are not mutually exclusive and you, just cannot have one without the other, I don't think anyway.

Sarah 11:58

No. obviously I, agree with you. Otherwise I wouldn't be in business. But, there, there's a lot of people that still believe that, leadership is, inherent. It's an innate thing. we, you can either do it or you can't. I personally disagree with that because it's a very low percentage of people who are natural leaders now because of the background you've got in the military and, having that sort of training, you probably have more. you learned earlier than most people will have done, and you're in a situation where it, you could not have, you couldn't have poor leadership'cause people would die. You know it, that's the highest stakes you can have. But what are your thoughts on it? Can you teach anybody to be a great leader? And by that one that can lead brightly with the right level of confidence, emotional intelligence and resilience. Two, inspire other people.

Alan Dunbar 12:49

Yeah, I, think I, I think you can, but I think somewhere in, in each of us, there has to be that inherent drive to want to lead somewhere, whether it's natural, you, have to make, the commitment to yourself and. Ultimately to those around you that you are going to lead. and leadership takes on a number of different guises, and we've, talked to us before and we can go back in time, where you, had. The really, the command and control leadership was the style of the day back in the seventies and the eighties. And then we moved forward and everybody decided that, transformational leadership was the way to go. The stand of bearer at the front. Follow me troops. I've got a great plan. and then somewhere along the line, we, we got more emotionally intel intelligent. We became more self-aware. We became more aware of our surroundings and the need to be adaptable and ultimately. There is no one fixed leadership style that works all of the time in all of the situations. And so by that very nature, not possible to be born a leader, I don't think.

Sarah 13:52

No, actually that's a really good point.'cause you'd have to be born a really versatile leader. To be a great leader. So you could be born to be a command and control leader, but that isn't a leader that we want 99% of the time.

Alan Dunbar 14:05

yeah.

Sarah 14:06

Yeah. Today, in today's world we need it when, the shit's hitting the fan. so yeah, that's a really, that's a really good point. So going back to the good leaders, when, you have what you describe as a good leader, how does that, how, what does that look like for you and how does that help you develop your confidence in yourself and what difference, I'm asking so many questions in one go What difference does that make to your effectiveness?'cause I want to try and help people see throughout this podcast and everything else that I do, the link between our ability to perform and be effective with not just the environment, but what's going on in here as well. So how does the environment affect that? And what about the leaders that have helped you do that so you could be effective?

Alan Dunbar 14:56

I've had, I've been lucky enough, to work for, quite a few different, leaders, all of whom I hasten to add had something positive in some way, shape or form. They've had a positive impact on my career, but I really, I go back to what the, very first, observation I had or the very first impactful moment in my career. and I was a young apprentice and yes, I was young once, let's not go there.

Sarah 15:22

We all were once.

Alan Dunbar 15:23

I was an apprentice aircraft engineer. and it was 1988, so it was obviously quite a long time ago. but I worked on a search and rescue squadron in the Navy and we had this, this manager, this, we call the watch, watch Chief Hughes in charge of the, engineer's chief engineer guy called Paul Doyle. And Paul was a, a calm. Unassuming fellow. he didn't, wasn't in the bar every night. he was quite calm and, just effective and organised. and I remember late, one evening during the summer of that year, we had, we were on search and rescue duty, and the search and rescue alarm went off and as usual, we're expecting a, lost American yachtsman, under Scottish islands or something.

Sarah 16:12

yeah.

Alan Dunbar 16:12

and it turned out it was the paper Alpha oil rig explosion. so we had, all of a sudden we had a lot of pressure and we were being asked to provide as many aircraft as we possibly could. we had two that were flyable and four that were busted.

Sarah 16:27

Oh.

Alan Dunbar 16:28

so Paul immediately took charge of the situation and stuck true to his organisational style and never ever became emotionally involved except to say. We know this is going to be a long night, let's get everyone up. Get everyone out of bed, including the chefs. Get the chefs up, get some food on, get some tea and coffee on. let's get to work and let's understand what we have to do. and that quickly translated from, a rescue operation because were a good sort of three hours flying time, at least away from Piper Alpha anyway, so at that time, everybody was in the water and it was really difficult. It was the RAF were involved, and really leading the rescue, but pretty quickly it turned from a rescue operation to a recovery operation. because we knew that weren't going to make it, that changed the mindset of everybody in the organisation. It, really put great weight on, everybody's shoulders.

Sarah 17:28

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 17:29

And again, came out, remained calm spoke to us, took care to understand, is everybody okay? We know what's going on. We don't have all the facts. We've only got reports that are coming in from. Aircraft on the scene from ships on the scene. not react to this. Let's focus on what we have to do. What are you, okay? And that was the one question he just, he kept asking everybody, are you okay? I have no idea how he was feeling.'cause he was in charge of it. And there was,

Sarah 17:56

yeah. Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 17:57

that night. But, so was, something that stuck with me. all my life was in the face of absolute crisis. That guy was methodical. He dealt in facts he dealt in.

Sarah 18:10

Calm. So calm as well.

Alan Dunbar 18:12

Yeah, didn't get emotionally involved. Didn't, or didn't emotionally react to anything

Sarah 18:16

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 18:17

but used everybody else checking on everybody else, making sure everyone was okay, making sure everyone had anything. Have you had a break? Have you had something to eat? Do you need a cup of tea?

Sarah 18:26

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 18:26

Are you okay? We back in those days, as, we didn't think about mental health. We just got on with it because it was the 1980s, but nevertheless, he was, he, was ahead of his time. then afterwards he also led. A, what could we do better? operation and exercise bec And again, were going through at the time, and I remember we were doing the analysis and the follow ups and thinking, it's not like that's going to ever happen again. And, but we've played along and they came up with the, squadron came up with this new method of operations in such extreme emergencies.

Sarah 19:03

Wow.

Alan Dunbar 19:04

five months later. Somebody blew an America, a PAN American 747 out the sky over lockerby.

Sarah 19:10

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 19:11

and it did happen again. Exactly the same thing happened again. And the same guy was on duty.

Sarah 19:17

Oh gosh.

Alan Dunbar 19:18

the same team. The same team was on duty. But that time around it was, despite the fact that we knew an, airliner had come down, it was easier to deal with, which might sound strange, but we'd gone through that before.

Sarah 19:34

Yeah, so you had some level of expectation, at least this time.

Alan Dunbar 19:38

we did, we'd done the reflective piece. We understood what had gone on. We understood why we were feeling the way we were feeling, and it was okay to feel like that. And, but ultimately we were servicemen, so on with

Sarah 19:50

Yeah. Yeah. We put on a brave face and off you go.

Alan Dunbar 19:53

Yeah. But it was a great example of when you think you're dealing with something never happen again. And I bring that all the way forward to the pandemic.

Sarah 20:00

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 20:01

we dealt with the pandemic and we managed our way through it. Great. will never happen again. Be careful.

Sarah 20:08

Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 20:09

You just don't know.

Sarah 20:10

You just don't know, do you? That's, I, mean my, I am, I was really gobsmacked when you said that you then did a review of it in the 1980s.

Alan Dunbar 20:20

Eighties. Yeah.

Sarah 20:20

that, I wish that was happening regularly now and we're way beyond the 1980s. that's, really ahead of. Ahead of time

Alan Dunbar 20:29

Oh,

Sarah 20:29

that, but I guess that's where a lot of our learning in, in the world today, in, in organisations across the world is looking back at what happened in. your situations anyway, sort of military style, operations where they've gone wrong because you guys were doing it right as much as you could do, but you were also very conscious of making sure it went right, it went even better next time. And I don't see that, I don't see that in the world that I work in enough.

Alan Dunbar 21:03

And that's the point enough. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And you're correct in as much that Paul at the time was incredibly forward thinking. But you have to, remember that in the modern environment, especially in the world of manufacturing. But the, modern workplace environment is much more fluid and much more dynamic it used to be. have. a, an employee level and a class, all of us as, employees, have a different set of expectations in the workplace today compared to what we might have done

Sarah 21:33

Oh yeah.

Alan Dunbar 21:34

20 or 30 years ago.

Sarah 21:35

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 21:36

That in itself brings the challenge of, leadership differently. the adaptability in the, what I was saying earlier about, nobody's going to be born to lead, all of that, but it also brings through that different ex expectation. is different positive outcomes and different negative outcomes. You, just can't see that, everything is new.

Sarah 22:00

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 22:01

We always have to, we're always adapting. We're always improving because we have to, because we work, we operate in a world now that is changing much more rapidly than it ever did. The world around us is changing much more rapidly than it ever did. So it's just a consequence. So maybe, we do, identify and, segment out reflection, but the way we're continually adapting to changing world, would argue that

Sarah 22:29

We are reflecting that.

Alan Dunbar 22:30

must do subconsciously, if nothing else, and we must be perhaps on a smaller bite-sized scale.

Sarah 22:35

Yeah. No, I think that's a good point. and it would be nice if we could do a bit more reflection. And on the big stuff, people are noticing that their cheese is moving and that they are reflecting on that. And how do we keep up with the new, AI onslaught and everything else. But when it comes down to human behaviour, and how we are responding to those changes, that's not what. Is necessarily looked at enough and when we, realise that everything we do, even the big changes, the AI changes, the whatever it is, they all start in here. So that's, I guess it is my bug bear is that people don't look inside here enough first before they start making those big decisions. But I think what you're saying is absolutely fair. There has to be a lot more reflection. Is it on the things that I want people to reflect on all the time? No.

Alan Dunbar 23:24

Yeah,

Sarah 23:25

it's on other stuff, but everything has to have a priority order, isn't it? I suppose so.

Alan Dunbar 23:31

if you think about it, Sarah, the one, one of the, one of the common, themes I, often hear is resilience. Resilience, especially among young people. We do like to, we do like to, or people like to complain that young people are not as resilient as, mentally resilient. physically as resilient as, as, as we used to be. my answer to that's always, hang on, at the rate of change they're coping with. Look at the social and the work environment that they exist in. The environment we existed in didn't have mobile telephones. We didn't have social media. The biggest change we had was we went from three television channels to four.

Sarah 24:08

Ooh, that was exciting.

Alan Dunbar 24:13

that, that was as if somebody'd invented another moon. We,

Sarah 24:17

But you had to get up and go and press the button on the telly to change the channel as well. I'm nearly as old as you. I do remember it.

Alan Dunbar 24:24

Exactly. Exactly. But it's so, you have to, I think it's much more challenging.

Sarah 24:29

I do.

Alan Dunbar 24:30

much, much more difficult to actually be resilient in today's modern world.

Sarah 24:36

I completely agree with you and we've talked, we've got kids. We've talked about the challenges that our, kids have gotten. The, and I know both of mine have would've massively benefited from never having social media. I absolutely know that it has wrecked their confidence. Absolutely right. Their confidence. that's, work in progress. the story you just told, which was amazing and really helps bring to light how a leader can help calm. And give you the confidence to do your job effectively, even in the most horrific cir circumstances. And that sounds utterly horrific. And I can't even begin to imagine how hard that is one to do, but then also to deal with afterwards. It's always there, it's, images you're never going to not see. so what about when you've been put in a position where someone has rocked you, where they've made you uncomfortable, where they've made you lack? Self-belief, lack confidence. What? What? Have you got an example of that? Or if you don't want to go into a specific example, what's the impact of it?

Alan Dunbar 25:42

Again, I think it's, it really depends on how that's presented to you, that, confidence rock. and I've been. Fortunate enough, to, experience both example. So one is a confidence rock with absolutely with no substance or no detail, no understanding behind it. And the other one is really more of challenge. Where you are left, facing questions, you're facing a situation where you're thinking. really don't have the answer to this, but the person you're, that you're working with or your boss at, the time, is actually taking an approach, which is, I'm going to help you through this, I'm going to help you find the right answer.

Sarah 26:26

And then you don't feel quite so exposed.

Alan Dunbar 26:29

it is, it is. And, I, was, I, was in one situation where. I ended up leaving the organisation. and really it was because of, conflict without data or conflict without a full rationale, without a an explanation or without any attempts to resolve and understand people's points of view. simply a style that was, okay, this isn't going to work. I thought it would. My little science experiment hasn't worked out. So we're going to make a change. And, guess what? and that then leaves you questioning so many open questions about, what could I have done different? Because ultimately that's the first place we go, isn't it? It's, my fault. What have I

Sarah 27:16

Yeah. What, did I I agree with you. That's what I do, but I, actually have realised over the years it isn't what all people do at all. Some people will remain stuck in it was their fault. They, did all. So there's a nice bit in the middle where we can look at both sides, but I'm like you, I go straight to, what did I do wrong? Always have one, bit of imposter syndrome in there, possibly. It must be my fault. I've never fitted in all of that stuff. But then there are people who could do, who don't even look at anything they did at all. And it's everyone else's fault, but.

Alan Dunbar 27:50

and you know that's a, that, that's a good point with the, imposter syndrome, I used to, think I was the dumbest person in the room, and everybody else was smart than me, so I

Sarah 28:01

No, you were right.

Alan Dunbar 28:03

and I went and did an, I went and did an MBA to prove to myself that, hang on, I'll get an MBA and then, I'll be brainy

Sarah 28:10

Did and did. Did it? Did it change? Did it change it? And I was kidding when I said you were right. Let's scrub that out there. I've known you long enough. I think some tease a little, but, I, and again, back to when I first met you, I thought you were so intelligent. I'm not saying you're not, but I, you came across,'cause you were doing your MBA and you were talking about vacca and, all of that. And I was like, oh my god, this, guy's really bright. But you thought I was really clever'cause I was writing a book or something. and bizarrely, neither of us, Dan believed that we were. That clever or that bright at all?

Alan Dunbar 28:52

Yeah. And that's absolutely right. but then that came from a, position of self-doubt that

Sarah 28:58

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 28:59

a, set of circumstances that both led us to a point in time. And, as I said, que questioning self.

Sarah 29:06

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 29:07

and, I'm not sure one of those areas where sometimes I think, an understanding of emotional intelligence is a double-edged sword. because it can be very negative when you, and if you overplay some of the facets of it, especially understanding self, if you start out

Sarah 29:24

Okay.

Alan Dunbar 29:25

it's being undermined. and got underlying it imposter syndrome, but if there's an event that triggers that and then you start, you're relying on your emotional intelligence skills and capabilities. Sometimes you can go way down the wrong road too far and.

Sarah 29:45

You can, it can be a rabbit warren so can you, can you be too self-aware?

Alan Dunbar 29:53

I'm not sure you can be too self-aware, but I think you can spend too much time and not balancing and not stepping back. is great, but what, as with all situations, have to step back and, be able to, step back. as we know, sometimes we will commit our thoughts to paper or, jot it down on digital media or whatever. but. It's then being able to walk away and switch off. and it wasn't even a leader that said to me, it was, one of a, great friend of mine, who I still work with today. he, said to me, he said, Alan, use this period. Go and play golf. Go for a walk every

Sarah 30:32

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 30:33

while you're in between jobs. Go for a walk every day. Clear your head. Don't sit there and don't analyse everything and for 15,000 jobs every day. Just don't do it right. Job will find you. And he was absolutely right. He was absolutely right with that. I ignored him. I didn't, I was, actually did go down a rabbit warren for a while

Sarah 30:54

yeah.

Alan Dunbar 30:55

analysis, which led me to you. but nevertheless, I still reflect on that and think, do you know what, Pete, you were right.

Sarah 31:03

hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it? and I, think when we talk about having too much or too little self-awareness, it isn't, when we talk about too much self-awareness, sorry, it isn't about having too much self-awareness. It's having a lack of emotional self-control to know when to stop it, isn't it? So it's the, second part of emotional intelligence. I can see what I'm doing. But then can I control when I actually need to do it or not? so I don't overanalyse myself and go down those rabbit warrants. so going back to, because I think I distracted you slightly, but going back to the people that have rocked you, not in a good way, and affected your confidence, what does that do to your ability to perform? And to do what you need to do, because I think it's really important for people to understand who are maybe listening to this and thinking, what do you mean? what, why would it affect how someone performs? And it's, worth noting that the neuroscience behind this is really clear, is that if we are feeling fear. In any shape or form, we are not able to show up and shine like we want to. So if you think of someone in an interview who's sits there before an interview going, I mustn't say this. What if I forget that they're going to think I'm too old, too young, too this, too that you cannot, your brain cannot perform the way you want it to, which is eloquently, confidently, calmly giving off that trust that, somebody needs to feel from you to want to hire you. So what was your experience when you have been In a relationship with a leader that was less effective for you?

Alan Dunbar 32:38

put it's, it is, it's, actually, it's very, demotivating. in terms of your performance, it absolutely decimate it. and it's easy to quantify or, and make an objective view of that, because I go back to, there's usually very little fact data context. Discussion, understanding, reflection, you usually find with less effective leaders, as you put it, lack. Those types of areas, they lack empathy. there's no, that's the great Stephen Covey said, seek first to understand. never any of that. It's, made my decision and this is how I see the world, therefore, bang. And some of the best guys I've worked for, just, they don't do that. They have that ability, that mindset to go the other way and flip the other switch, and I think that's what it is. It's not really about it's all your fault or it's not really about, I'm going to put you under pressure because if you don't perform better, there's the great one, isn't it? If you don't perform better, we're going to have to take action. Okay. What does performing better look like?

Sarah 33:52

Yeah. and is it what I'm doing or is it how I'm doing it?

Alan Dunbar 33:57

What am I.

Sarah 33:58

and is it the environment that I'm in that is stopping me from enjoying being able to do it, that's affecting how I do it.

Alan Dunbar 34:04

Absolutely. But then the other side of that, I remember, I got, I'd gone, I'd been the sales director at a small engineering firm and I got this bigger job with a big international organisation as a sales director. And again, it was, everybody's going to be smarter than me at this great big, company. so I showed up, settled into the job, and I was as like everybody. I'm on a six month probationary period and I'm, doing my best. I'm doing what I know and I'm, going about my job the way I've, always done it and the way I've landed it. then about three months in, I had a one-to-one with my managing director at the time, and, he won't mind if I name a guy called Damon Harvey. and. Damon was a, a, real action focused leader. You know, he was, he was quite a character. But I remember going to Damon and I said, Damon midway through my probationary period, I said, just, can I get some feedback on, is there things I'm not doing that you would like me to do? Or I'm doing things that you don't want me to do, or, gimme some feedback how I'm doing. And he said, listen, son, I hired you. are going to be successful now. Don't you worry about it. You just get out there and you just do what you do. You're great. You'll be brilliant. And I walked out of his office that day and I was like, wow, nobody's ever said that. in, in, my life, no leader manager has ever up.

Sarah 35:24

is, that great feedback? yes, it makes you feel good, but is it great feedback?

Alan Dunbar 35:30

there was no context to it. There was no detail to it. But than to say, what you're, doing is great, son. You just keep doing it.

Sarah 35:38

It. Yeah. Okay.

Alan Dunbar 35:39

thought, that's okay.'cause I know what I'm doing and I'm doing things the way I think we should be done, and winning business. And that's great. but he was just, yeah. I'm backing you that I brought you in here. I think you're doing great. I know what you're doing. We talk about it every week in meetings, so just keep doing it.

Sarah 35:58

fair enough. I think if everybody could at least have that feedback occasionally, that would be great. And if they could have feedback where it actually says, this is exactly what you are doing, that is great. But also let's have a look at things. let's explore.'cause you talk about the world changing so fast, everything's moving on so fast. If we keep going with that attitude that, oh, you're doing great. We are not looking at how could we do something differently next time, even if it was already good, could it have been even better? But I guess that's taking, leadership to another level. I don't know how many people are even at the level where they're giving feedback properly yet.

Alan Dunbar 36:33

But I think I think he was very, insightful at that point because it wasn't about. The sales we were winning or not winning or anything like that, or how I was behaving with my team. That was all about, I'd walked into his office asking for feedback. I referred to the fact that I was midway through my probationary period. He is instantly gone. Oh, I can see this is playing on your mind. Let me just kill this one for you right now.

Sarah 36:58

Yeah. And it was what you needed at the time then. Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 37:02

it was absolutely pinpoint at that, time, and it was a, great reaction, but off the back of that, that gave me the confidence to be able to, talk to him, to be able go and have a really great working relationship with him so that we were able to deal with the good and the bad,

Sarah 37:18

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 37:19

Navigate away through it. about the challenges that we had in front of us and talk about how we're going to deal with'em and some of the external challenges as well as the internal. so it was, a real trigger point. And sometimes it's only a small trigger point like that yes, it puts a string in your, string, your step for five minutes,

Sarah 37:37

But the knock on effect's huge, isn't it?

Alan Dunbar 37:40

Absolutely. Yeah.

Sarah 37:43

you mentioned that, when you'd had the less effective leaders in your life, that it had a really big impact on you and affected your productivity, your performance. what was the first thing you noticed? that lowers, that, that drops. what do you, because I'm just wondering if people even realise that their confidence is being affected. So what would you say is something to look out for? How, where did you notice it, was it in your thinking? Was it how you felt? Can you remember?

Alan Dunbar 38:15

Yeah. Yeah, it was. I think the first thing is everybody, whenthey receive, a sort of. Unconstructive negative feedback. What? Whatever. it's easy to go looking for the step change that, that thing that's suddenly going to make it all right, there is no one thing that's suddenly going to make, it all right. but if you retract into a position where I've got to be brilliant, but I don't what brilliant looks like, what you find is you end up working and convincing yourself, you're achieving less and less. Because you're not getting that, Hey, you're a superstar,

Sarah 38:52

Yeah, so then we've got, then we've got the risk of burnout happening.

Alan Dunbar 38:56

so you've got burnout. You've got tiredness. You're not sleeping well. you invariably, your diet goes to hell.

Sarah 39:02

yeah,

Alan Dunbar 39:03

you're drinking too much of the wrong stuff, red Bull coffee, whatever other brands are available.

Sarah 39:08

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 39:08

but it's you do, you resort to bad habits that impact you negatively, physically.

Sarah 39:16

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 39:17

And also mentally is, the biggest one because as body starts to drain, when the body starts to struggle, the brain isn't far behind. In fact, the brain's usually leading the way.

Sarah 39:27

it is, but we don't notice it, do we as much,'cause we think, oh, I'm not sleeping very well. Lots of people don't sleep very well. We don't realise the impacts of having, but that flood of adrenaline and cortisol that constantly goes through your body. Every time you tell yourself, I've gotta work harder, I've gotta do more, I'm not doing it right. the impacts on that are huge. Absolutely huge.

Alan Dunbar 39:45

Yeah, and it's, it really comes from an understanding and that, that's the one piece of advice I'd say to, I'd say to anybody if you're struggling right now. And may, maybe you're struggling at work. Maybe it's external factors. That's that. That's driving it. But being able to reflect and try and understand and try and document and talk about your performance, where your life is in now, whatever it is that's bothering you, being able to talk about that is a huge help because. Talking to somebody else, as I, spoke to you, but talk, talking to somebody else allows you to compartmentalise. will help you break it down, not go down the rabbit hole and identify a positive path forward. Hopefully. I'd love to think that for anybody watching this, if they are in that situation that they can, they have a relationship, they can go and talk to their boss or their peers or,

Sarah 40:44

that, that'd be ideal, wouldn't it?

Alan Dunbar 40:46

Through it, if not, there are other ways there. There are other people out there, as I said, came to you, but that support, we mustn't be afraid to ask for support because none of us are perfect none of us are as, as much as none of us are perfect. None of us are awful.

Sarah 41:05

No, don't. I think there's very few people that come in with the intent to be awful, but what happens is the environment gets so, so complicated. I wanted to use the word toxic, but it isn't always. It's complicated that if you don't have the confidence in yourself to manage the environment and protect your people around you, then it can consume you and then you become. Part of the problem with it, because you're consumed by the issue, you're consumed by the environment, which is why having the right level of confidence, emotional intelligence is so important. The higher up you are, the more so because you know you are having to deflect more.

Alan Dunbar 41:47

But it comes back to are you being supported? I was talking about this, this morning with my own team

Sarah 41:51

Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 41:52

I was doing some training with, one of my teams, and we were talking about managerial support and when, you're struggling as a manager, you getting the right direction? Are you getting the right support from your leaders and your managers? How often are they talking to you? What are you talking about? Do they understand? Do they know how you feel? Do they know? That you are stressed? Do they know that you feel overworked? And do they know that you are struggling to understand what your priorities are? And if not, let's talk about it. And that's a really important piece. And I, again, it was something I'd learned this on. I saw a great example of it when I was young. I was in, I was doing training with the Navy and one of the, one of the things you do is ships firefighting.

Sarah 42:33

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 42:34

we're at this base learning how to fight fires on ships, which is truly horrible.

Sarah 42:37

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 42:38

we'd done one particular activity and we all come outta the, test rig. one of the instructors starts yelling at this young guy, calling him an idiot. You did this, you did that. You're an idiot. You're nothing but an idiot.

Sarah 42:49

Wow.

Alan Dunbar 42:50

and this kid goes, no, I'm not an idiot. I just done did exactly as you told me to do and enough instruction to do it properly. That makes you the idiot, not me.

Sarah 43:02

I love it and I so wish, if I could give anyone any advice watching this, what you said was brilliant. If your boss or your leader isn't giving you what Alan has just described, the opportunity to say how you feel, to see if you understand where you are going, to, understand what, sort of support and direction you need. We're talking about situational leadership. then feel free to be brave enough to tell'em they're the idiot because you are going off in the wrong direction.'cause they haven't given you clarity.

Alan Dunbar 43:31

Because they didn't give you clarity, they didn't give you direction.

Sarah 43:34

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 43:35

they didn't use support. It's, something that we are very strong on committed to in our companies. open, honest, and transparent communication

Sarah 43:43

Yeah.

Alan Dunbar 43:44

and not shooting the messenger. and that's, a key thing because you're never going to solve problems if you're reactive. and again, back to less impactful leaders that, that I've seen shoot the messenger.

Sarah 43:58

Shoot the messenger. And I have one final question for you on this is, why do you think they do that? Why do you think, because we can make a big assumption about why leaders will do that, not just leaders, people at all levels might do it, but why? Why a leader?

Alan Dunbar 44:15

Oh, that's easy. Temporarily solves the problem, doesn't it? It's someone else's fault and it solves the problem.

Sarah 44:21

Solves a problem so they don't have to take responsibility. What do you think is underneath that? And you know me well enough to know where this is going, but.

Alan Dunbar 44:31

Where it's going. It's your own lack of confidence, isn't it?

Sarah 44:37

They've got, they're scared of something too, because if, something went wrong in your business and you weren't scared of getting shot down by whoever's above you, or even if you were, you knew how to manage it, you do this classic curious thing, which is, that's fascinating. How did that happen? How could we prevent it from happening again? That, to me, is a sign of someone who can leave brightly. Lead confidently lead with emotional intelligence and the resilience that employees need from them to thrive.

Alan Dunbar 45:09

Yeah, but again, it, doesn't, it come back to, I'll shoot the messenger. That's great. That's solved the problem for now because I'm totally bere of ideas as, to what else to do other than shoot said messenger. And if I'm bereft of ideas what to do, why is that? And I wonder how many of'em actually ask that question. Why is that? if you've got your team around you, got a good team that you trust, and that's my definition of a good team, do you trust them? trust what you're being told? Do you trust

Sarah 45:42

Yeah,

Alan Dunbar 45:43

they provide you with the right inputs for you to make decisions? When you have to provide guidance, you, have to, you're never going to be bereft of ideas. There's always, somebody's always got an idea somewhere. And that's that. That comes back to that communication piece, doesn't it? Transparent communication. Don't shoot the messenger you can solve the world.

Sarah 46:02

Wow. Let's finish on that. Let's solve the world with transparency and trust, as a way to go. Alan, thank you so much for joining me on the Lead Brightly Podcast today. It's been a pleasure as always talking to you, and, look forward to working with you some more over the next few years.

Alan Dunbar 46:19

Absolutely. Thanks. Thanks for the opportunity, Sarah. It's been fun. Been fun.